The debate. //

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  Topic Started By:  mista    On:  Mon 9th November, 2009 at 21:56
mista
Member Since: 2004
Posts: 12,998
The sticks
#1  The debate.  9 Nov '09 at 21:56
What does being European mean to you all? Do you want to be part of it all or should we distance ourselves from it? Turkey? In Europe? What would that mean for Europe?

Non-Europeans - how do you view the EU as an identity? What does it represent?

It's late at night, I'm sure this is exactly what you were all thinking about and I have given you the chance to express your introspective explorations, go!
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the_enquirer
Member Since: 2004
Posts: 920
Courchevel
#2  Re: The debate.  9 Nov '09 at 22:14
Personally (although i live in France) I think there is already too much power given to Brussels.
After all the whoha about our MP's expenses we want to give more power to MEPs whose expenses make ours looking like mother Teresa.
from the desk of the Courchevel Enquirer

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arcticmonkey
Member Since: 2006
Posts: 9,091
#3  Re: The debate.  9 Nov '09 at 22:23
I love being european and give thanks, whilst eating a croissant and some ham, cheese and pickled cabbage, that I'm not american.
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mista
Member Since: 2004
Posts: 12,998
The sticks
#4  Re: The debate.  9 Nov '09 at 23:09

Originally posted by the_enquirer

Personally (although i live in France) I think there is already too much power given to Brussels.
After all the whoha about our MP's expenses we want to give more power to MEPs whose expenses make ours looking like mother Teresa.[/quote:a1ffc03f65]

So get rid of 27 governments and replace them all with one?

[quote:a1ffc03f65="arcticmonkey"]I love being european and give thanks, whilst eating a croissant and some ham, cheese and pickled cabbage, that I'm not american.

Do you have anything in common with Romanian people, apart from not being American?
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arcticmonkey
Member Since: 2006
Posts: 9,091
#5  Re: The debate.  9 Nov '09 at 23:13

Originally posted by mista

Do you have anything in common with Romanian people, apart from not being American?

Well, I am a quarter eastern european so I'm probably as mardy as them.
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mista
Member Since: 2004
Posts: 12,998
The sticks
#7  Re: The debate.  9 Nov '09 at 23:35

Originally posted by techmonkey

Anyway, it's fairly simplistic but what always bothers me is that if the Scots and Irish still squabble with the English over stuff that happened centuries ago, how does anyone really expect half of Europe to just get on with the other half given the events of the 20th century?[/quote:6591e87ebd]

At various points people like the Scots, Catalans, Welsh etc... have seen the EU as a positive thing, since it allows them to feel something else than Spanish or British. Also there are Hungarian speaking parts of Slovakia, but their elected officials are not allowed to speak their own language in their own parliament, but they can in Brussels.

Originally posted by

You've also got the ongoing territorial disputes between Spain and the UK, Greece and Turkey, and to a lesser extent, Ireland and the UK, and that's before you even touch the Balkan mess.[/quote:6591e87ebd]

All quite irrelevant if everyone embraces Europe, no?

Originally posted by

I love the fact that progress in Europe has allowed me to work in other countries easily and resettle in France without requiring a visa etc, but there are so many impossible hurdles to overcome in the current project that I worry about where it'll end up. Countries such as Bulgaria are still run by bandits and Italy is bankrupt but no-one seems to mind.

Well we're pretty bankrupt too aren't we, thats our choice under Labour, but we might vote in the tories next year at which point we'll be run by a bunch of bandits.

[quote:6591e87ebd]The organic development of a federal state through barter, compromise and bribery is a first as far as I'm aware. It needs clear direction and strong leadership but has neither. The farce of relocating the parliament twice a year and the number of official languages are great examples of the waste the process of pandering to a political ego generates.

Well apparently all the translation and interpreting that goes on within the EC costs the European population 2 Euros a head, it's actually surprisingly efficient, Sarkozy, admittedly isn't, youd think he should be seeing as he's so small.

[quote:6591e87ebd]Reckoned this thread would be about Cookie's gender to be honest.

Definitely a chick
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mista
Member Since: 2004
Posts: 12,998
The sticks
#9  Re: The debate.  9 Nov '09 at 23:56
Well what's the Lisbon treaty all about? There's actually going to be a president of the EU. The EU can already make laws which apply to this country, although not overly intrusive our government needs to respect them. At some point it is going to become illegal to sign out of the maximum working week, something our government voted against.

Breaking of rules happens everywhere in politics, I think I'm just going to have to learn to accept that one. I reckon that if Turkey improves it's international relations and human rights records a bit they stand a good chance of getting in. It could even have an effect of spreading peace in the middle east? It would show that the European club is not exclusively for Christians and it would give an arab nation a powerful voice in the EU.
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musehead
Member Since: 2008
Posts: 43
#11  Re: The debate.  10 Nov '09 at 00:51
Isn't Turkey almost wholly in Asia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_spanning_more_than_one_continent#Asia_and_Europe

Maybe we should think about letting Ukraine in instead.

I visited Moldova last month, they are very keen to join. EU flags flying everywhere!
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Andrew1991
Member Since: 2009
Posts: 31
Aberdeen
#12  Re: The debate.  10 Nov '09 at 02:49
I believe in localised power so naturally I'm against the EU making laws that come enforce here.

The EU should really just be about economic free trade and free movement of Labour. It should not be a super state that it seems like it's turning in too.
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mista
Member Since: 2004
Posts: 12,998
The sticks
#13  Re: The debate.  10 Nov '09 at 08:39

Originally posted by musehead

Isn't Turkey almost wholly in Asia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_spanning_more_than_one_continent#Asia_and_Europe

Maybe we should think about letting Ukraine in instead.

I visited Moldova last month, they are very keen to join. EU flags flying everywhere!

The canaries are in the EU, as is Madeira, Reunion island, Ceuta and Melilla, Guadeloupe and several more. However, Swirtzerland, European Russia and Noway are not "in Europe", can you define the EU by geographical borders?

In the emerging world order we need to kowtow to the states but China is becoming more powerful, Russia's coming back onto the scene and there is talk of Brazil and India becoming economic powerhouses, what about the argument that we need to group Europe together to collectively have a more powefull voice on the world stage?
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peacethruvandalism
Member Since: 2006
Posts: 251
Portsmouth
#14  Re: The debate.  10 Nov '09 at 09:52

Originally posted by Andrew1991

I believe in localised power so naturally I'm against the EU making laws that come enforce here.

The EU should really just be about economic free trade and free movement of Labour. It should not be a super state that it seems like it's turning in too.

Reference to Blair?

I've got to agree though, it makes sense economically although I'm not convinced by the Euro.
My MEP back home Daniel Hannan, although a little right wing on some issues for me seems to be pretty accurate on the lack of democracy in the EU.
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Andrew1991
Member Since: 2009
Posts: 31
Aberdeen
#16  Re: The debate.  10 Nov '09 at 15:11

Originally posted by peacethruvandalism

Originally posted by Andrew1991

I believe in localised power so naturally I'm against the EU making laws that come enforce here.

The EU should really just be about economic free trade and free movement of Labour.[/b:11a3bb60bb] It should not be a super state that it seems like it's turning in too.

Reference to Blair?

I've got to agree though, it makes sense economically although I'm not convinced by the Euro.
[b:11a3bb60bb]My MEP back home Daniel Hannan
, although a little right wing on some issues for me seems to be pretty accurate on the lack of democracy in the EU.

He's is the biggest c&%t I've ever seen. I hate him so much. A little right wing? He a fucking crazy c&%t.
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arcticmonkey
Member Since: 2006
Posts: 9,091
#17  Re: The debate.  10 Nov '09 at 15:16
You really need to learn to form an opinion.
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peacethruvandalism
Member Since: 2006
Posts: 251
Portsmouth
#18  Re: The debate.  10 Nov '09 at 20:06

Originally posted by Andrew1991

Originally posted by peacethruvandalism

Originally posted by Andrew1991

I believe in localised power so naturally I'm against the EU making laws that come enforce here.

The EU should really just be about economic free trade and free movement of Labour.[/b:d11da101c0] It should not be a super state that it seems like it's turning in too.

Reference to Blair?

I've got to agree though, it makes sense economically although I'm not convinced by the Euro.
[b:d11da101c0]My MEP back home Daniel Hannan
, although a little right wing on some issues for me seems to be pretty accurate on the lack of democracy in the EU.

He's is the biggest c&%t I've ever seen. I hate him so much. A little right wing? He a f^%k crazy c&%t.

Maybe a slight understatement on my part.
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mista
Member Since: 2004
Posts: 12,998
The sticks
#19  Re: The debate.  10 Nov '09 at 20:31

Originally posted by techmonkey

You really are spouting now mista, those odd countries and islands are only in the EU because countries such as France treat their colonies as internal parts of their own territory.

The bigger voice on a world stage argument is akin to a modelling contestant asking for world peace - clueless and naive. What do you want this voice to say? European nations are heavily divided on which police actions to send their troops to, they can't agree on ways to tackle a common problem such as piracy or nuclear enrichment in Iran, and neighbours such as Russia have frequently expressed displeasure at expansion into their spheres of influence.

The leaders and decision makers of Russia and the USA are chosen by the public -flawed as the systems may be- and tend to be skilled political operators (W aside). Candidates for leading EU posts are proposed via horsetrading between national governments and the jobs are ultimately given to the least inspiring, failed bureaucrats who have simply managed to offend fewer nation states than their competitors. Can you honestly see the former Dutch foreign minister standing as equals with Obama or Putin and commanding the same respect?

Cheers pal, I always knew I was good looking, but I have enough confidence in myself, no need for you to keep telling me

One of the worst countries at dealing with the Iran situation is the USA, and who was Obama before he became president? What is his background? it would have been easy to deride him alongside world leaders 3 years ago because he didn't have a name, he hadn't made it yet.

I dont necessarily believe everything I am writing either, or disagree with everything you say. I am just suggesting devils advocate points to provoke a debate on something I happen to be studying just now.

I would say that you presume it's all failing, so then why would more and more places want to join the EU? Lets not forget that the original purpose it served was to keep peace between European countries, something it has done quite well at on the whole. How about the position of it being a soft power? America has forced "democracy" on many countries yet is pleased that others such as Saudi Arabia are not democratic. It doesn't beat about the bush when it gets involved abroad, however it only has limited success in bringing about real positive change, or in many cases the change it claims it wants to bring about. By granting accession and not removing it, the EU can gain influence and affect society in bordering countries. The elite want to join it for money and the average person sees the liberties and freedom of movement which we benefit from. Therefore by acting as an inclusive body of countries with relatively high living standards on a global scale it generates a lot of power by other places wanting what we've got. It could be argued that through slow growth and inclusion of countries who "behave" it could improve the lives of many people, increase prosperity and do all of this without swanning around the world demolishing other places as the American empire has.

Briefly on the Geographical point then lets look at NATO - the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation - where Romania, Hungary, Turkey and Slovakia are all member states, hardly on the Atlantic though are they!? Any off hand rejection of Turkey joining the EU based on geography is - as you put it - clueless and naive in my opinion.

The original response only contained 2 lines!
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